[2007-04-06 09:59:43] Ana: Hello Bram, how are you today?
[2007-04-06 10:00:11] bram: fine, and you?
[2007-04-06 10:00:48] bram: quite easy here today
[2007-04-06 10:01:24] bram: test 1 mic 2 3
[2007-04-06 10:01:29] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:01:33] Ana: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:01:45] Ana: it will get busier in a moment
[2007-04-06 10:02:07] Ana: are you goingto mapping fest?
[2007-04-06 10:02:09] bram: ok, we'll wait a little
[2007-04-06 10:02:47] bram: no, i don't think so,... tonight i'm going
to paysages electroniques
[2007-04-06 10:02:52] bram: in lille
[2007-04-06 10:03:03] bram: hello jem
[2007-04-06 10:03:05] Ana: I like tha name.
[2007-04-06 10:03:18] jem: hi
[2007-04-06 10:03:32] brendan: hi everyone
[2007-04-06 10:03:39] Ana: I'be been in Lile in one of my trips allover
europe in a Renault4L
[2007-04-06 10:03:43] bram: hello brendan
[2007-04-06 10:03:48] Ana: Hello to both
[2007-04-06 10:04:13] bram: how were the sessions yesterday?
[2007-04-06 10:04:28] Ana: exelent both.
[2007-04-06 10:04:35] brendan: hi Bram they were good
[2007-04-06 10:05:07] Ana: are you ok to start. perhapsby introducing
yourself Bram
[2007-04-06 10:05:22] bram: ok
[2007-04-06 10:05:48] bram: i'm co-organizer/curating the cimatics festival
in brussels
[2007-04-06 10:06:14] bram: and i'm teaching at a faculty of fine arts
in belgium/ghent, also vjing
[2007-04-06 10:06:23] bram: vjing once in a while
[2007-04-06 10:06:46] bram: and i was planning to discuss a moore ideological
aspects of vjing
[2007-04-06 10:07:31] bram: could be linked up a little with the session
of micheal
[2007-04-06 10:07:48] jem: sounds good
[2007-04-06 10:07:59] brendan: In what sense of 'ideological' bram?
[2007-04-06 10:08:07] bram: what does property/ownership means in our
society, and how is art evoking this
[2007-04-06 10:08:54] bram: in the sense of: how is art reflecting our
main/general/common...
[2007-04-06 10:09:11] bram: ... ideas of society,... how are dominant
political ideas reflected
[2007-04-06 10:09:19] bram: in art and it's position iin society
[2007-04-06 10:09:39] bram: it are questions actually :-)
[2007-04-06 10:09:58] bram: but as i stated in the intro:
[2007-04-06 10:10:16] Ana: Do you mean art in general or specifically
VJing?
[2007-04-06 10:10:21] bram: for instance the whole idea of a liberated
art in contemporary/modern society
[2007-04-06 10:10:35] brendan: Does this relate to the subjectivity of
the artist/'viewer' in any way?
[2007-04-06 10:10:47] bram: ... art in general,... but i see a clear differnce
with vjing
[2007-04-06 10:11:11] brendan: that's interesting, in what way/s?
[2007-04-06 10:11:17] bram: i'm excited by the unique position the Live
AV scene haswithin our contemporary
[2007-04-06 10:11:20] bram: art culture.
[2007-04-06 10:11:45] bram: first of all
[2007-04-06 10:12:21] bram: contemporary/modern art is exhaling a sort
of illusion of a liberated art
[2007-04-06 10:12:45] bram: but it got somehow marginalised (exists?)
in our society
[2007-04-06 10:13:17] bram: we (society iin general) through mass media
get a specfic contact with art
[2007-04-06 10:13:29] bram: it a sort meta-connection
[2007-04-06 10:13:57] bram: the most important message art is sending
into the world seems to be the
[2007-04-06 10:14:36] bram: fact that it exists,... "there is a place
outthere" proving freedom
[2007-04-06 10:14:58] bram: but art should have a more central role/ central
position in society
[2007-04-06 10:15:19] bram: for me art is like a dream, and has a clear
function in society
[2007-04-06 10:15:33] Ana: do you think VJing helps to create that position?
[2007-04-06 10:15:36] bram: like a dream is a mechanism of survival for
the indiividual
[2007-04-06 10:16:14] brendan: Do dreams hapen in 'real' time??
[2007-04-06 10:16:22] bram: art functions the same why, as this dream
but for soociety seen as a single being
[2007-04-06 10:16:26] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:16:37] bram: i don't knoow
[2007-04-06 10:16:37] jem: Surely if Art had a central role it couldn't
speak out against things that are taken for granted?
[2007-04-06 10:16:56] Ana: and you can'trepeat the same events (Brendan)
[2007-04-06 10:17:06] bram: couldn't?
[2007-04-06 10:17:14] Ana: thebrain is a mix desk
[2007-04-06 10:17:26] jem: well it would nt be taken seriously
[2007-04-06 10:18:06] brendan: How about the recurring nightmare of Bush
and Blair?
[2007-04-06 10:18:14] bram: for me it is more about the position this
mechanism has for it's hosting organiism
[2007-04-06 10:18:24] Ana: tei are not art
[2007-04-06 10:18:34] bram: yes and noo
[2007-04-06 10:19:04] bram: art has always been made able by the dominant
ideology, the ruling power
[2007-04-06 10:19:08] brendan: Jem/Bram that depends on the degree ofself
reflection/criicism in society, or not?
[2007-04-06 10:19:46] bram: yes, but hte mechanism art should be, the
function it should play
[2007-04-06 10:19:49] bram: has been taken over
[2007-04-06 10:19:51] jem: It has been but that is not where its power
to question comes from, Bram, surely?
[2007-04-06 10:19:52] bram: by mass media
[2007-04-06 10:20:40] bram: it's power to question is al ot about involvement
by the subject itself
[2007-04-06 10:20:45] bram: (individual)
[2007-04-06 10:21:13] brendan: Like art in liberal democracy does the
mass media become an hermetically sealed limited reflection?
[2007-04-06 10:21:43] bram: yes
[2007-04-06 10:22:22] brendan: Which is an illusory critique
[2007-04-06 10:22:38] bram: it's content it's story is dominated by capitalist
ideas
[2007-04-06 10:22:55] brendan: Never questioning the central structures
of power and control
[2007-04-06 10:22:59] bram: even iin it's most fundamental aesthetics
[2007-04-06 10:23:09] bram: for iinstance
[2007-04-06 10:23:26] bram: you know the phenakistiscope by J Plateau
[2007-04-06 10:23:49] brendan: Validated only by in as much as it is those
same power structures?
[2007-04-06 10:23:55] bram: the man who invented the pinciple of moving
imagesor better:
[2007-04-06 10:24:05] bram: the illusion of motion images
[2007-04-06 10:24:48] bram: this appproach to audiovisuallity could be
seen as conservative
[2007-04-06 10:24:56] brendan: Don't know that one :unsure:
[2007-04-06 10:25:38] bram: as a sort of mimesis of reality
[2007-04-06 10:25:40] bram: http://www.centres.ex.ac.uk/bill.douglas/Schools/animation/animation3.htm
[2007-04-06 10:25:57] bram: bwash, does anyone follow?
[2007-04-06 10:26:16] bram: i mean, audiovisual media are ideal iin convincing,
but
[2007-04-06 10:26:23] bram: could be far better developed
[2007-04-06 10:26:35] brendan: Yup, sort of
[2007-04-06 10:26:52] bram: the fact that we are most of the time watching
moving images, as it were
[2007-04-06 10:27:05] bram: perfect renderings of real-time-/life
[2007-04-06 10:27:21] bram: is an ideological effect
[2007-04-06 10:27:54] bram: like you have the "live" television
with a specific authority
[2007-04-06 10:28:09] bram: and a message of "we media are serving
you"
[2007-04-06 10:29:00] bram: I think these "new media" could
have been far better developed and will far better develop if a less capitalistic
[2007-04-06 10:29:05] Ana: that is interesting because it seems to give
the espectators a power that was never theirs
[2007-04-06 10:29:26] jem: sorry got logged out!
[2007-04-06 10:29:47] bram: yes, and the same with moving images,... for
me it seems a strange tiny visual effect to mimic real-time motion
[2007-04-06 10:30:17] bram: it is not the essence of the medium,...
[2007-04-06 10:30:19] brendan: So at least two illusions? One mechanical/physiological
and another ideological/political/psychological?
[2007-04-06 10:30:27] bram: i don't want to sound paranoid
[2007-04-06 10:30:28] bram: but
[2007-04-06 10:30:57] brendan: it doesn't mean they're not out to get
you
[2007-04-06 10:31:08] bram: the mechanical/physiol is caused by ideological/pol/econ
dominance in this development of media
[2007-04-06 10:31:13] brendan: :smile:
[2007-04-06 10:31:15] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:31:30] bram: they once got me :-)
[2007-04-06 10:31:42] bram: no, but even widescreen television is like
that
[2007-04-06 10:31:58] bram: our eyes are positioned next to eachothoer,
and not on top
[2007-04-06 10:32:13] bram: traditional papyrus, paper shapes are vertical
[2007-04-06 10:32:52] bram: they have a certain authority, give their
message a certain authoority and context
[2007-04-06 10:32:59] brendan: There's a blu-ray drive on this 'puter
and we were like babies watching hi def yesterday
[2007-04-06 10:33:08] bram: but they do not give you the illusion that
what you see is reallity
[2007-04-06 10:33:45] bram: they just say: you should follow/obey what
is written here, because the one who has written this is in charge
[2007-04-06 10:34:03] bram: he is the only one who can write/ buy the
paper/printing machine
[2007-04-06 10:34:26] bram: audiovisual media tend more to give you the
illusion that you are watching yourself
[2007-04-06 10:35:02] Ana: will you explain this last sentence a little
bit more?
[2007-04-06 10:35:03] bram: just like the illusionist aspect of self-control
in interactive media
[2007-04-06 10:35:13] bram: where you just follow a certain route
[2007-04-06 10:35:19] bram: that has been prepared for you
[2007-04-06 10:35:35] brendan: The great victory of late capitalism 'Police
Yourself'.
[2007-04-06 10:36:00] bram: because the mimic real life (ana) they mimic
an actual physical position in the worl
[2007-04-06 10:36:02] Ana: so, you mean we don't have individual choice?
[2007-04-06 10:36:08] bram: yes
[2007-04-06 10:36:36] bram: like media are oorganised now i would say
we are being lead by economic rules
[2007-04-06 10:36:49] bram: and the development of media are being lead
by economic rules
[2007-04-06 10:37:07] bram: wlie it could have been ruled by artistic,
ore media-orientated factor
[2007-04-06 10:37:22] bram: (l art pour lart) mediaformedia development
[2007-04-06 10:37:32] brendan: so from where we are, in late capitalism,
how could the mechanism be far better developed?
[2007-04-06 10:37:38] Ana: I do agree with certai llimitations but I also
would like t believe I draw my path and make my (possible) options
[2007-04-06 10:37:41] bram: it is about accessibility also of media, and
the idea they are exhaling
[2007-04-06 10:38:03] bram: (brendan) as a mediaformedia development :_)
[2007-04-06 10:38:40] bram: pfff... its hard to write ... know i feel
how the italian in amsterdam felt day before yesterday
[2007-04-06 10:38:57] brendan: art for art?
[2007-04-06 10:39:10] brendan: Carry on this is good
[2007-04-06 10:39:12] bram: yes and no
[2007-04-06 10:39:15] Ana: but are you consider those wo actually chose
to make art pour l'art?
[2007-04-06 10:39:20] brendan: you're not surrounded
[2007-04-06 10:39:29] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:40:07] bram: we should develop the media for their medianess...
for them as possible beared of our common dream
[2007-04-06 10:40:11] bram: not as art
[2007-04-06 10:40:20] bram: bearer
[2007-04-06 10:40:39] bram: and celebrated our dreams with it
[2007-04-06 10:40:59] bram: art for me iis ritual communication
[2007-04-06 10:41:14] bram: and functions the best when it is not called
art
[2007-04-06 10:41:15] Ana: you mean develop medianess as a whoe or for
the sake of it (withouta purpose)
[2007-04-06 10:41:23] bram: so when it functions really
[2007-04-06 10:41:58] bram: yes, for the sake of the dream (the catharsis
mechanism of society)
[2007-04-06 10:42:13] bram: and as a means to communicate for sure (almost
forgot)
[2007-04-06 10:43:06] bram: this rituallity should be freed of to dominant
ideological hijackings
[2007-04-06 10:43:09] Ana: how do you see this devlopment of medianess
related to VJing?
[2007-04-06 10:43:22] Ana: (I like that word medianess!)
[2007-04-06 10:43:45] bram: it is impossible to clear every factor of
ideology out oof it, but for the sake oof the development of a medium/any
technology
[2007-04-06 10:43:58] Ana: or the roe of VJing in the development or enjoyment
of medianess
[2007-04-06 10:44:10] bram: VJing is for me moore like a symbolic celebration
of the accessibility of the media
[2007-04-06 10:44:24] bram: it could be seen as a metaphor
[2007-04-06 10:44:33] bram: screens placed alll oover the place
[2007-04-06 10:44:52] brendan: This does touch, quite a bit, on Michaels
session
[2007-04-06 10:45:03] bram: makes the "closed" audiovisual media
physically accessible
[2007-04-06 10:45:15] bram: as far as i could follow him
[2007-04-06 10:45:18] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:45:51] brendan: The illusion of democratic control in'their
space' 'them tube'? :smile:
[2007-04-06 10:45:55] bram: but it is also a celebration, a ritual approach
of AV
[2007-04-06 10:46:18] bram: not illusion of control, more a kind of juxtaposition
related with new media
[2007-04-06 10:46:26] bram: massmedia i mean
[2007-04-06 10:46:42] bram: celebratin the directness
[2007-04-06 10:46:54] bram: it's purely modern aspects
[2007-04-06 10:47:11] bram: celebrating the concept and extennding the
noow
[2007-04-06 10:47:13] bram: noow
[2007-04-06 10:47:19] bram: the sublime thus :-)
[2007-04-06 10:47:39] bram: but then:
[2007-04-06 10:47:47] bram: what is contemp art doing
[2007-04-06 10:47:50] bram: ?
[2007-04-06 10:48:02] bram: it is not artforart
[2007-04-06 10:48:21] bram: its a symbol of our economic system call capitalism
[2007-04-06 10:48:54] bram: and that is why i lke this vjing live av art
scene
[2007-04-06 10:49:11] brendan: It does feel like there is an unstructured
fight going on in the ownership of means of control for digital media.
[2007-04-06 10:49:12] bram: perhaps we should start calling them Live
Audiovisual Art
[2007-04-06 10:49:16] bram: as with capitals
[2007-04-06 10:49:34] bram: those liveAV artists coming forth out of this
vj-culture
[2007-04-06 10:49:42] Ana: I would also add to it the fact that people
looking at your work are in many ways part of it
[2007-04-06 10:50:15] bram: there is no concept of authorship for me
[2007-04-06 10:50:24] bram: it is noot my work
[2007-04-06 10:50:47] bram: it is my contribution to the expansion of
the momnent, the party is as ritual monent
[2007-04-06 10:51:03] Ana: what do you mean no authorshp and not your
work?
[2007-04-06 10:51:34] bram: like i told you once,... i never even recorded
a single second of a vjset of me
[2007-04-06 10:51:50] Ana: so, where is the artist' in your performance?
[2007-04-06 10:52:03] brendan: Have you read 'Roland Barthes by Roland
Barthes' :smile:
[2007-04-06 10:52:15] bram: fundamentals of capitalsm are the inequallity
of...
[2007-04-06 10:52:17] Ana: I didn't
[2007-04-06 10:52:20] bram: (brendan) no tell
[2007-04-06 10:52:44] bram: ... capitalism is based on the statement that
material can't be copied
[2007-04-06 10:53:00] brendan: After writng 'The Death of the Author',
I think
[2007-04-06 10:53:13] bram: a stone is a stone, and iif you also want
a stone we should take him into half, or find another one
[2007-04-06 10:53:34] brendan: though it's structured dialectically :devil:
[2007-04-06 10:53:36] bram: that is the basis of every rule in society/capitalism
[2007-04-06 10:53:55] bram: not like my chatsession though :-)
[2007-04-06 10:54:10] bram: what does iit say?
[2007-04-06 10:54:48] brendan: a dialectical chat session could take weeks........
[2007-04-06 10:54:49] bram: for me: these new media are really the fiirst
possiblity to do something without these material restriictions
[2007-04-06 10:55:20] bram: so authorship as ownership doesn't make a
lot of sense anymore
[2007-04-06 10:55:31] bram: ... but anyway
[2007-04-06 10:55:52] brendan: In what relationship do they stand, however,
with capitalism
[2007-04-06 10:55:57] bram: back to vjing
[2007-04-06 10:56:08] bram: what do you mean?
[2007-04-06 10:57:01] brendan: or interactive installation where I always
feel the viewer completes the work in ways never intended by the maker
[2007-04-06 10:57:51] bram: yes... but iis this spectator the autor then,...
aren't all some kind of links
[2007-04-06 10:58:10] bram: a locus where lines of information are passing
by
[2007-04-06 10:58:18] bram: and experiences happening
[2007-04-06 10:58:18] brendan: New media are, in a sense, already the
embeded reporters of capitalism
[2007-04-06 10:58:37] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 10:58:57] brendan: the lack of control and potential for spontaneity
could be a way through???
[2007-04-06 10:58:58] bram: yes, but could help liberating some old and
nasty ideas
[2007-04-06 10:59:39] bram: Vjing for me says, lets celebrate (with) media,
without calling it art
[2007-04-06 11:00:26] bram: vjing could bend dystopies like the 1984 idea
in a utopie
[2007-04-06 11:00:38] bram: ...
[2007-04-06 11:00:48] Ana: but you need somesort of degree of control
over technology
[2007-04-06 11:01:02] brendan: As a neo Situationist rejection of art?
[2007-04-06 11:01:10] Ana: which, by itself is controlng
[2007-04-06 11:01:36] bram: technology will always evolve... and the control
on is a recurring battle
[2007-04-06 11:01:48] Ana: so although you can acheive a certain level
of uncontroled action/effect
[2007-04-06 11:02:10] Ana: the whole give up control is not posible (to
my views)
[2007-04-06 11:02:11] bram: media-technology, and iit's implicated language
(as a technoloy) is something more difficult to hijackbuut i
[2007-04-06 11:02:28] bram: but iis in my opinion far more severe one
hijacked(hacked
[2007-04-06 11:02:44] bram: once hijacked
[2007-04-06 11:03:24] brendan: Sorry folks, Uncle Jo here again, we only
have minutes to the end of the five year plan :blush:
[2007-04-06 11:03:39] bram: hehe
[2007-04-06 11:04:01] Ana: :-)
[2007-04-06 11:04:06] brendan: and my battery is about to run out
[2007-04-06 11:04:10] bram: lets put this text online and have aclose
reading of it :-)
[2007-04-06 11:04:24] brendan: (I bet he never said that)
[2007-04-06 11:04:34] Ana: it will be online in a couple of minutes.
[2007-04-06 11:04:37] bram: maybe some stuff clears up a little
[2007-04-06 11:04:42] bram: :-)
[2007-04-06 11:04:49] bram: nasty job,...
[2007-04-06 11:04:53] jem: Well, thanks Bram. I have to go now too. Take
care.
[2007-04-06 11:05:02] bram: bye
[2007-04-06 11:05:10] bram: i'll have to go to
[2007-04-06 11:05:20] bram: thanks for the opportunity...
[2007-04-06 11:05:20] brendan: That was great Bram, we will need some
major unpicking
[2007-04-06 11:05:33] Ana: Thanks Bram for moderating this chat
[2007-04-06 11:05:35] bram: unpicking?
[2007-04-06 11:05:43] Ana: which was really good
[2007-04-06 11:06:08] brendan: Thanks and lets keep this discussion going
somehow. Bye (Sell again) |
